The following is a rush transcript:

DS: 00:00 Good day citizens, and welcome to this edition of the Thomas Jefferson Hour podcast

CSJ: 00:05 We will be mercifully brief. I must be rushing out to the Badlands of Dakota for an important meeting. Yes.

DS: 00:11 Keep your eyes out for Beau Wright. He's going to be out there.

CSJ: 00:14 I will look for him. Yeah, we, you know, we talked to him — He's in Virginia. I think down at – near poplar forest. And he is — used to work for the Obama White House. — Now he's a, a what — A young idealist trying to save democracy against all of the forces that are against it. But I'm heading there but, but this was a fascinating, fascinating program. We know — we're doing a series of interviews of authors. This is a book by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin. They're joint authors. They've done a number of books together, including one you love on Red Cloud.

DS: 00:47 If you want to read a great book on the American plains. And uh, the history of native Americans — it's called the heart of everything that is best single volume I've ever read about Red Cloud for sure

CSJ: 00:59 and this one is called valley forge. It doesn't have a subtitle. It's the story of that moment in the winter of 1777, 1778, the darkest moment of the entire revolution when George Washington was in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania with 12,000 troops — 2,000 of whom died or deserted.

DS: 01:21 And this is not a dry read

CSJ: 01:23 smallpox, hunger, desperation.

DS: 01:27 We talked during the conversation about how they did such great character studies of all of these individuals and you, you learn so much about all of these individuals. I really enjoyed this book very, very much.

CSJ: 01:39 I did too. They're terrific. We want to have them back on the program and we've nominated this as you know, as a, as a club, it's already,

DS: 01:46 it's up to you.

CSJ: 01:47 Well, it's in. And so we want people to have

DS: 01:49 a little late.

CSJ: 01:50 If you haven't already read the book, read it now and then let us know what you thought — send us questions, we can do follow up with these two men. I think they would take our call.

DS: 02:00 We need to, we need to get back to our listeners are mail stack is rising and rising, but we've had so many special shows lately with authors

CSJ: 02:06 we will, and speaking of books just to say the winter retreats at Lochsa Lodge are coming; one on water in the West. That's January 13th through 18th and January 19th through 23rd. These are the book clubs you always wanted to have playful, humorous conversation about serious ideas in American history. One: water and the other. Well, not American history at all. Shakespeare. I love doing these David and people always say to me, isn't that awfully wintery up there? It's not. It's, it's like 35 degrees, which for North Dakota is like summer and the snow is there, but the — But it's not — No blizzard conditions. There's no wind. It's like a winter paradise and we sit around this open fire and talk about books and ideas and then in March there's Steinbeck — Steinbeck's Monterrey in California. That's I think a March 2nd through the ninth.

DS: 02:57 As long as you pitched, I will too; much shorter than you. I just want to thank everyone who has taken the time to go to Jeffersonhour.com and choose to support the show. We need you to support.

CSJ: 03:11 and we are so grateful.

DS: 03:11 Not like you and I are driving sports cars. We do it for nothing.

CSJ: 03:14 I have a Ford Falcon out there with only three tires

DS: 03:17 you don't

CSJ: 03:18 No but it's pretty close to that.

DS: 03:20 I'd love a Falcon

CSJ: 03:21 I had one as a child.

DS: 03:22 So with that, let's go to the show. And again, thank you all who have chosen to support the show. We really do appreciate it. Go to Jeffersonhour.com to find out more about Clay's cultural tours. And again, the book Sir,

CSJ: 03:34 this book by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin, Valley Forge, published in the autumn of 2018 by Simon and Schuster. A delightful conversation with the authors. Let's go to the show.

DS: 03:47 Good day citizens, and welcome to the Thomas Jefferson Hour. We have a very special program this week. A couple of authors

CSJ: 03:54 we've worked out a wonderful cooperative arrangement with Simon and Schuster and they're feeding us authors and new books that pertain in one way or another to the life of Thomas Jefferson and the founding generation and the first book in this series, and I'm just delighted by it, David, is called valley forge by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin. They're veteran writers, they've got about 25 books between them over the course of their careers. They turn out to be just wonderful gentlemen to interview and their book is about that moment in the winter of 1777 in the spring of 1778 when 12,000 American troops under George Washington's command were wintering at a place called Valley Forge, which was 23 miles northwest of the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And that's the basis of this story. Every, every American school child has heard about valley forge and you know, soldiers with rags on their feet and blood in the snow. But I'll tell you this, David, I had no idea until I read this book of how desperate this winter was

DS: 04:59 and we were so pleased that they agreed to, uh, to join us for the full hour. And with that, let's, let's get to the conversation.

CSJ: 05:06 We're talking about the newly published Simon and Schuster volume valley forge by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin, both of them prolific authors, one who has written and or co written and edited nine books, the other 16. So You two bring an enormous amount of experience to this. Give us in the shortest possible compass, the idea of what actually happened at valley forge.

Clavin: 05:29 Many people believe that there was a battle of valley forge — that's why it's familiar to a lot of people, or they have this social studies view of a couple of guys freezing in the snow and George Washington and watching those guys freeze in the snow. But a big reason why we feel passionate about the book is we believe that the valley forge experience was the major turning point in the revolutionary war. If — some people argue Washington's crossing, some people argue Yorktown, maybe a couple of other events or battles you could throw in there, but we believe that — the research and everything that we put the put it to the book backs this up, that if the continental army had not survived that six month encampment, that there would not have been a revolutionary war to continue fighting in the summer of 1778. George Washington took 12,000 troops in the valley forge in December of '77. And during the course of a horrific winter encampment, 2000 of those soldiers died from disease, from exposure, from starvation, generally nightmarish, conditions. And the main reason the army survived, we think is because of the integrity and leadership of George Washington. A big part of this book for us was showing him as a very human figure, a leader who's men revered him. And yes, dozens, hundreds deserted during the valley forge experience. But we focus more on those who stuck it out, who would not abandon George Washington and he wouldn't abandon his troops either. And so we believe that valley forge was the values of survival of the Continental army, but the survival and the revival of the American revolution

Drury: 07:11 Clay, this is Drury. And what — the only thing I would add to that is that we both contend that the characters who inhabit our book, the pages of valley forge and their shared core values were part of the most productive generation of statesmen in the history of this country. And we say this knowing full, well aware of Abraham Lincoln's team of rivals and FDR's kitchen cabinet, but these young men and they were all young. And that was another surprise to us. Uh, his home grown generals were in their thirties, his key age, his core — Alexander Hamilton, John Laurens, the Marquis de Lafayette, they were 22, 23 and 20 respectively. And the fact that these young men created this nation around George Washington who for that winter at valley forge was the personification of the United States government is just an amazing story. We think

CSJ: 08:10 It is an amazing story and you've told it very well indeed. Your book reads like a novel, it brings forth a lot of new and fascinating insights. Just a couple quick followup questions. Why valley forge and not somewhere else?

Drury: 08:23 Can I — Can I just say — I say this when I go out to speak at events, Tom and I had planned while we were in the course of putting this project together, putting this book together, we had planned, we had talked about, you know, people are gonna come to us — because we have argued with historians and as Tom said, some will say that the surprise attack the previous Christmas on Trenton and the mop up at Princeton, that was the key turning point of the war. Others will say Saratoga — Horatio Gates, his victory over gentleman Johnny Burgoyne up in Saratoga. Others will say it's when the French got into the war, that was the turning point — and as Tom mentioned, others will say, Nope, it's Yorktown, the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown. So we were figuring how were we going to answer this. And then out of the blue, Joseph Ellis, who of course won the Pulitzer Prize for his biography of George Washington. He won the national book award for his writings on Jefferson. As you well know — he came in with a blurb for us calling valley forge the existential moment in the war for independence when the direction of American history hung in the balance. So Tom and I just decided, well, if anybody wants to argue with, we'll give them Joseph Ellis

CSJ: 09:38 His blurb — Amazing — If I were in this encampment, food — at certain points near starvation, one disease after the next, I'm going through like wave's, no clothing, blood in the snow, all of that kind of anxiety. What are we doing here? What's the, what's the point of sitting in this godforsaken place where we are literally coming apart? I'd leave if I could. And you talk about those who've tried to swim the rivers or, or, or escape — some were caught, many just dissolved back into their lives. What is it about George Washington that enabled his charisma or his integrity or his stature to convince these frightened half starved men to hang on?

Clavin: 10:28 Well, this is Tom, I think a big reason was that, uh, quite a few of these men. I mean, there were enlistments and men that came and went there were militias from different states that came and went, but there, there were quite a few of the soldiers and the Continental army had been serving Washington since he had become the commander and chief a couple of years earlier. And so I think there was a — had been built up this reservoir of loyalty and dedication to Washington and recognition of his integrity and you compare it a little bit to the first couple of years, first two, three years of the, of the civil war, for example, in the case of the, union army, you had commanders in chief that were coming and going, you know, Pope and Hooker and Mcclellan twice and, and, and, uh, you know, sometimes some Mead you never — sometimes the soldiers never knew from one day to the next who was their commander in chief — on the southern side, everybody knew from day to day it was Robert E Lee. And I think there was something like that with Washington's case. He had been — he was their commander in chief. He was the most important military figure United States had. I mean, some people. Okay. You can mention Horatio Gates, Gates won that one victory that was basically it from the rest of his career was, uh, was, was not very distinguished at all. Washington even though many of his campaigns were unsuccessful and there were tough losses at the battle of Brandywine and German town, for example — he was the man, he was, he was the leader — of the military leader and I think the spiritual leader of the continental army. So I think that yes, there was some men that simply gave up and deserted, but I think there was a lot of — and we know from the evidence that there were a lot of men who stuck it out with George Washington because they believed in him — really did believe in the cause of liberty. This is not just a, uh, this was not just a way to pass the time for them, to put in their military service. They believed in what they were doing

Drury: 12:28 I would just add to that, uh, George Washington was willing to undergo the same deprivations as his troops — his headquarters at valley forge. At first it was a tent, Marquis, he called it and then he moved into a three bedroom farmhouse, the Pott's House, and his entire staff, 16, 17, 18 people. They all lived in this cramped space together and he didn't pull rank, so to speak. He wasn't feasting on mutton and — and fresh beef. While his troops were starving, he was eating the same dinner of Hickory nuts and a carrot and an onion. And I think it's that certain je ne sais quoi I guess you would put it. You don't know — It's the way the troops felt about Patton but not Ike — Ike. I'm not putting Ike down. Eisenhower was a tremendous general, but Patton inspired this personal loyalty much as George Washington did, and I think Tom put it best when he just said he was the embodiment of the American revolution in the United States for this winter.

CSJ: 13:37 Thinking about in reading your book, how to, how do two people write a book, how do you, how do you do the logistics of this?

Drury: 13:44 All right. Clay. I will finally admit it. I can't hide it anymore. I have pictures of Tom. He does everything. He does the research, reporting the writing and then when it was presented with the byline on, I pull it. I remind him that I have pictures — threat of exposure. Yeah.

Clavin: 14:00 That's an interesting question because we do get asked — people will think, well, do we trade chapters, does Bob write one and I write another one? And you know, from the very first book that we did, Halsey's Typhoon which was published, uh, 11 years ago, uh, we realized that you can't have four hands on a keyboard, you have to, you have to know write with one voice. And it was also very clear to me that that writing voice should be Bob's voice. So, you know, I do the majority of the research; Bob does all the writing. I do editing and revising and you know, the sexy stuff like the back bibliography and the photo captions and things like that, and that's, we're a double play combination and, and, uh, it worked with Halsey's typhoon and we just, we didn't really feel a need to vary our or routine up to the present.

Drury: 14:50 It's almost like think of Henry Ford's assembly line, Clay. We'll jump into this together. And uh, in this case, valley forge or in the Red Cloud book, the heart of everything that is there are obviously no one to interview – if there are people to interview as in – there were still World War Two vets alive during our research for Halsey's typhoon – the last stand of Fox company, there were Korean War vets alive and uh, and last men out about the marine security guard strapped on the Saigon Embassy. Seventy five – I'll do the interviewing, but you could throw me in the library of Congress or the National Archives and I probably eventually come out with what we need, but you have to send in a search party with miners' caps to findme, whereas Tom just swims through this, he swims through these, uh, these dense libraries and uh, between the two of us, uh, well, we, we formed a fairly good partnership.

DS: 15:49 I really enjoyed the way you delved into the characters and Clay said earlier, it read like a novel and that's part of it.

CSJ: 15:57 We're talking with Bob Drury and Tom Clavin about their new book, Valley Forge, Simon and Schuster, 2018.

DS: 16:02 Gentlemen, we need to take a short break, but we'll continue this conversation in just a moment. You're listening to the Thomas Jefferson Hour.

CSJ: 16:13 Welcome back to this special edition of the Thomas Jefferson Hour, out of character. This week we're talking with Bob Drury and Tom Clavin about their new book, Valley Forge, Simon and Schuster, 2018. I'm very much interested in some of those other characters in this story.

DS: 16:32 They did such a good job on that. They, you know, every book has a voice that appears in your mind as you read it. Right. And this one just falls into place

CSJ: 16:43 – we are dedicated to our man, Thomas Jefferson. But one of the surprises for me was how important the figure in this valley forge story Hamilton is, not just because he's Hamilton, but he wrote this masterful 13,000 word report which changed the whole structure of the American army.

DS: 17:00 And he had great handwriting. Let's go back to the conversation. This is the Thomas Jefferson Hour, and of course we talk a lot about Alexander Hamilton and the squabbles between Jefferson and Hamilton. And I really enjoyed some of your details about Hamilton – at one point in the book. I can't remember exactly the words that you used, but you explained that he's kind of a crazy warrior

Drury: 17:26 – John Lawrence, who is the founding father you never heard of, unfortunately because he was killed in the waning, waning days, weeks before the British were about to abandon Charleston, who was killed – Hamilton, Lafayette. They all wanted, they all had this, this desire, this burning desire for battlefield honors, for battlefield glory. It was just a sign of the times, so to speak. And although I was a war correspondent for 20 years and I saw the same thing in a lot of our – they all look like boys to me. Our boys in Afghanistan and Iraq, uh, you're not fighting for – Hamilton was not fighting for the concept of the United States. Lawrence was not fighting for the newly minted American flag. They were fighting for each other. And when Washington finally let them loose, they were too valuable to him and to George Washington at Valley forge for him to let them go. He needed them as aides de camp, not only for their, for their, public duties, but they helped buoy him. Washington did not show any emotion to his troops, but in that cramped Pott's house headquarters, they could see the strain on him. They could see the weight on his shoulders and having them around, I think really pulled the commander in chief through this ugly, horrible winter. And yet, as you say, they strained, they screamed, no, I want to be out on the battlefields. And because Washington was such a hands on general, was out on the battlefield himself. Even as aides de camp they found themselves fighting. I mean, Lawrence made a name for himself, even in defeat at the battle of Germantown. And of course, Lafayette, once he was given command of a brigade, he distinguished himself also.

DS: 19:14 You also sort of infer that these were the sons that George Washington never had.

Clavin: 19:20 Yeah, it's interesting that the man has been known as the father of our country. And by the way, it was during the valley forge encampment when that phrase was first used by a German language, Pennsylvania publication, that he did not have children when he and Martha married, he adopted her two children. She was a widow – that she had had with her late husband. Um, so he, he was, uh, he, he, his 46th birthday took place, uh, at valley forge in February '78. And, uh, he was childless and obviously by this point was destined to remain that way, and he had these young men who were, as Bob mentioned, were – Lafayette was 20, Hamilton and Lauren's 22 going on 23 years old. The