The following is a rush transcript.

DS: 00:00 Good day citizens. Good day podcast listeners, and have you voted? Welcome to this week's Thomas Jefferson Hour podcast.

CSJ: 00:10 I voted.

DS: 00:11 I did too.

CSJ: 00:14 I voted at 7:04 AM.

DS: 00:14 Yeah. I was about eight, 8:00 and I had my little white optimist club of Bismarck I have voted sticker.

CSJ: 00:21 Did you, So you had to show ID.

DS: 00:24 Of course.

CSJ: 00:25 And then they asked me questions.

DS: 00:26 They did to me too.

CSJ: 00:28 So that's the new North Dakota election law.

DS: 00:30 Yeah. It's funny because North Dakota is the only state in the union where you don't have to preregister. That's my understanding.

CSJ: 00:36 Right. But we have recently moved in the direction of voter ID and more stringent voter identification systems, more questions at the polls and as you know, Native Americans felt that they were being actively disenfranchised by some of the recent changes.

DS: 00:54 I think you'd have to be pretty naive to not think that they were.

CSJ: 00:58 I'm just saying that these, I'll just say it straight out, voter identification laws are inevitably attempts to squelch voter participation,

DS: 01:09 Suppress it.

CSJ: 01:10 And they are suppressive.

DS: 01:12 I don't think it's any stretch to say that they, the legislation passed by the Republican held legislature in North Dakota designed this law to make it more difficult for American Indians to vote. And part of the reason for that is that the Democratic candidate for Senate last election won by less than 3000 votes and

CSJ: 01:32 American Indians played a huge role in that.

DS: 01:33 They did, you know.

CSJ: 01:35 There were also attempts.

DS: 01:36 It's really embarrassing to me that they, that that's done in our little.

CSJ: 01:40 Anywhere that's done bothers me and especially here, but also because of the Dakota access pipeline controversy, there was a fair amount of reprisal legislation proposed and in some cases passed during the 2017 legislative session in our own beloved North Dakota, which again is a chilling and deeply saddening fact, that here's a people who largely ignored, who got deeply concerned about a pipeline. People came from all over the world to show solidarity with that. And one of the results was that the state legislature of North Dakota seriously debated some reprisal legislation that Jefferson would say it was worthy of the ninth century.

DS: 02:34 You call it what it is and it was racist, but that's not what the show is about this week.

CSJ: 02:39 But it is about elections.

DS: 02:41 It is.

CSJ: 02:41 And the good news is that more people voted in this midterm election than ever before in American history. That's all great. The good news is that lots of young people were elected to Congress and to other positions, including an unprecedented number of young, really extraordinary women that are not just,

CSJ: 02:59 It's not like your grandfather's Buick. These are not your Margaret Thatcher, kind of young women. These are really strong, passionate, exciting.

DS: 03:09 I think as you said in the show, they're not like Diane Feinstein.

CSJ: 03:13 Whom I love.

DS: 03:13 You apologized.

CSJ: 03:14 I admire her deeply, but she's another generation. This is, these are young women in their twenties and thirties who are like, we're mad as hell. We're not taking it anymore. And they're willing to express their points of view.

CSJ: 03:25 I mean, to think that a Muslim woman was elected to the US House of representatives from Minnesota is such a delightful fact,

DS: 03:35 And there's that quote

CSJ: 03:35 What she said, too.

DS: 03:37 Oh, yeah.

CSJ: 03:38 Remember what she said?

DS: 03:38 Minnesota welcomes immigrants.

CSJ: 03:40 Not only welcomes.

DS: 03:40 Not only welcomes immigrants, but.

CSJ: 03:43 We send them to Congress.

DS: 03:44 Right.

CSJ: 03:44 She couldn't have said it better. Tweet that.

DS: 03:46 There's a quote somewhere in the show about, from Jefferson, that I found, him saying, you know, you have to recognize when you're too old and get out of the way.

CSJ: 03:56 That it's time to let the younger take over and that's what we're seeing here.

DS: 03:59 And that's good. That's great. That should make us all optimistic.

CSJ: 04:02 You and I are fossils.

DS: 04:04 Before we go to the show, I'm wondering, do you have anything you'd like to inform our listeners about?

CSJ: 04:09 Indeed. So I've been.

DS: 04:10 What a setup.

CSJ: 04:10 It's great though because listen everyone.

CSJ: 04:14 Shakespeare without tears. Water and the West, the two humanities retreats at Lochsa lodge west of Missoula, still a few places in each of them. I want to fill them because I think this is so much fun. This is like the book club you always wanted and it's one of the great places in the world to be in January. I know that might seem counterintuitive, but it's mild and the snow is beautiful, it's like a Currier and Ives print of what a lodge in Montana and Idaho should be like in January. And then, uh, the second through the eighth of March, Steinbeck's California. A second time we've done that. So those are all out there and then we're going to France in the fall of October, 2019. These cultural tours, you can find out more about at Jeffersonhour.com, but do seriously consider coming. I am so excited about them. I've been reading the books, David and I now have four Shakespeare plays to read in the next month and I couldn't be happier.

DS: 05:16 Speaking of books, one we mentioned on the show this week that I really want to promote. This is strictly me because it's a favorite of mine.

CSJ: 05:23 You love this book for some reason.

DS: 05:23 Michael Lewis, the Fifth Risk.

CSJ: 05:27 I have it in my hands, it's a slender book.

DS: 05:28 As I say in the show, it starts out and there's a little Trump bashing.

CSJ: 05:32 It's easy.

DS: 05:32 But really I walked away from that being so optimistic about our country and all the things it quietly does. The millions of bureaucrats that are unrecognized and unrewarded. It's a good book. So I'm lobbying.

CSJ: 05:46 What's the risk?

DS: 05:46 You have to read the book.

CSJ: 05:47 Okay. So Jon Meacham has been all over the media lately and he has a book which you greatly admired too.

DS: 05:52 Have you read that yet? Oh, you know, that's a good one. I would happily borrow that to you.

CSJ: 05:58 The theme I think of the book is, we always get through this.

DS: 05:59 I suspect after you've read this, you'll want to add a copy to your library.

CSJ: 06:02 Well, I suppose you want.

DS: 06:04 I would give it to you except there's like four or five of my friends that I would like to have read this.

CSJ: 06:09 Yeah well good luck getting it back. So. Okay. So the cultural tours are coming January 13th or 18th, which is water in the west, January 19th to 24th, which is Shakespeare. Then two through eight, March, which is Steinbeck's California. France in the fall. This is where you go into your baritone.

DS: 06:25 Well, I don't know, but I, you know, I don't want to lose people.

CSJ: 06:29 If you like the Thomas Jefferson Hour.

DS: 06:30 That's pretty good. You could do it.

CSJ: 06:32 And you want to see this program continue, know that we do not take any personal money from it. We do it as a sort of labor of love.

DS: 06:40 I can never say that quite right. You do that really well.

CSJ: 06:43 We believe passionately that the Jeffersonian viewpoint is one that is missing from our national culture.

DS: 06:49 You're way better at this than me.

CSJ: 06:49 And we want people to come here because this is a place where there is humor and civility and good sense and people can hear our friendship as we talk these things through week after week. You as the semipermanent guest host of the Thomas Jefferson Hour.

DS: 07:04 You as the creator.

CSJ: 07:05 And we are so pleased with that. And this program does actually depend upon listeners like you.

DS: 07:10 It does.

CSJ: 07:11 So if you can help us, know that we are not using it to play Black Jack at the casino, not using it to go on trips to Vegas, that we, the money that people contribute to this program helps to keep alive what I think is a little of the enlightenment spirit in this country.

CSJ: 07:29 And so thank you and you know how to find us. We couldn't be more appreciative if we tried. When I think of the people who like this program and admire like our friend Crisler of Nashville, Tennessee, it's deeply moving. I know it moves you too, to think that there are people who plan their week so that they can listen to two knuckleheads in North Dakota.

DS: 07:50 I just can't accept and believe that.

CSJ: 07:51 They do though.

DS: 07:52 You're really good at this. You should take over on the pitch

CSJ: 07:54 You told me I should never pitch, but I'm going to do it if you don't, because this matters to me and what I'm thinking about. Look, we're living in a desperate time. You can't turn on Fox or MSNBC without thinking, oh my goodness, this country, whatever your politics, just, oh my goodness, how are we going to claw our way through?

DS: 08:16 We'll be fine.

CSJ: 08:17 You can read all the Jon Meacham books you want. But I know that people are edgy. This country is edgy and now the gun violence is just spiking everywhere. Bomb threats and, it's just nuts.

DS: 08:28 Okay, you're really good at this but wrap. That's enough.

CSJ: 08:30 But people need a harbor of serene discourse with grammar and complete sentences. Not reduced to talking points, not taking our cues from Rachel or from Sean or from Rush or you name it. That's what this program tries to do, but also to keep it in the lens of Thomas Jefferson. So if you like what we're doing, please help us in any way that you can. And most of all keep listening to the Thomas Jefferson Hour tell everyone, you know.

DS: 09:03 And with that, I will also say that, you know, the past couple of weeks, during the pitch we said, you know, could go to Jeffersonhour.com. We're really proud of the website.

CSJ: 09:12 I went there the other day. I couldn't believe the stuff that our webmaster puts on it. It's so good.

DS: 09:16 He has let us both know that the traffic at that website has gone up 36 percent.

CSJ: 09:21 He gets the credit.

DS: 09:22 Go to Jeffersonhour.com and find everything you want to know about the cultural tours, how to support the show and a lot of other content as well.

CSJ: 09:29 Indeed. But let's go to it because I thought this was fun. No incident analysis. Eric Sevareid once said, incident analysis is always dicey just two days after the election. We're trying to bring some wisdom to it. I hope it helps, whether people agree or disagree with our analysis. I hope it helps them get the conversation started that they want to have about what does amount to one of the most important elections of our time. So here we go to the Thomas Jefferson Hour podcast edition. Thank you all.

DS: 09:59 Good day citizens. And welcome to the Thomas Jefferson Hour, your weekly conversation with President Thomas Jefferson and your weekly conversation with the gentleman seated across from me now, the creator of the Thomas Jefferson, our Mr Clay Jenkinson and Clay, I was hoping we could talk elections this week.

CSJ: 10:18 Well, we've just had one. Normally midterm elections are not that spectacular

CSJ: 10:25 and they often don't get much publicity in American life. But in recent years with our 24/7 cable media and so on, and the really profound factionalism and tribalism that has overtaken American life, these midterm elections become particularly important. And this time the president, Donald Trump, has said all across America, I'm on the ballot. Not technically, but this is about me. This is your chance to endorse what I've done or repudiate it, but think of me as being on the ballot. And so that of course lifted the election into a still higher level of national attention,

DS: 11:05 It's kind of a unique thing. And I was hoping that we could talk a bit about that, what happened in the election this week. And you could help us see it through a bit of a Jeffersonian lens.

CSJ: 11:16 Well, let me say this, that nobody ever expected the presidency to become as powerful and as important as it has become. This is something that evolved over the course of American history.

DS: 11:26 And several presidents.

CSJ: 11:27 The great moment for this was actually Theodore Roosevelt, who inherited the country when McKinley was assassinated in September of 1901. And Roosevelt looked at the world, he was a brilliant man, maybe the most intellectually prepared president in our history. And he said, look, this country is now too big, too powerful, too densely populated, too urban, too industrial, to just be Jefferson Jackson system that we had where nothing much has to get done. He said, there's no longer really a place for legislative supremacy, that we need a stronger executive. We need a stronger national government. And he was of course quite willing to fill what he took to be that void.

CSJ: 12:11 And he became really the inventor of the modern presidency. He carried the country sometimes kicking and screaming into the 20th century, the American Century. But his view was the legislative branch is going to have to subordinate itself to the necessary power of the president, the executive branch. And in some regards, Roosevelt was America's first king. I know he wasn't a king, but he began to behave like one. And since World War II, I suppose beginning with FDR, his fifth cousin, the presidency has grown stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger until today, it's almost the whole business of government. And so Donald Trump becomes president in 2016 and 17 and this election, the midterm election in the middle of his first term, it sort of was a chance for the American people to step back and say, how are we doing here? Uh, do we. He had a republican house.

CSJ: 13:12 He had a Republican Senate, what is regarded as a Republican or Conservative court system, and obviously a Republican conservative executive. So all the branches appeared to be lined up to fulfill the will of the conservative Republican platform. And so then Trump invited us, President Trump invited us to look upon this as kind of a vote of confidence or no confidence. And here's what we know. Well, we know two things, number one, huge numbers of people voted.

DS: 13:45 We should point out that we're recording this program on November eighth

CSJ: 13:48 So we don't know the outcome of some key Senate and house challenges and governorships also, but gigantic turnout. So on both sides, it wasn't just a blue wave or the liberal progressives or the people that call themselves the resistance. It was a massive turnout all around. That's number one. And number two, if you look at this, try to look at this

CSJ: 14:13 objectively, the party in power usually loses a fair number of seats during a midterm election. That's more often the case than not. And as we go to broadcast about 30 pickups were done by the Democratic Party in the House of Representatives, might be 24 or five, but somewhere in that zone. That is not a dramatic shift.

DS: 14:40 It's about average.

CSJ: 14:40 That's a fairly normal shift for a midterm election. So you know, so many people that I know, David and I think you too, thought of this election as quote unquote, the most important in our lifetime. And this is the moment and so on. It turns out it was a fairly typical midterm election.

DS: 14:56 One thing that I took away from it is that both parties called Tuesday's midterm elections a victory and they're both right and they're both wrong. Democrats, they want to use their newly gained control of the house to push what they call positive legislative moves, their agenda.

CSJ: 15:15 On infrastructure, on tax policy, on healthcare.

DS: 15:17 And obviously to use it as a check upon the executive.

CSJ: 15:20 At least, supervision, oversight committees looking at the work of the cabinet, looking at corruption in the government.

CSJ: 15:29 Looking at Trump's own behavior. The Democrats were pretty careful not to say impeachment, but there will be definitely an attempt at greater oversight of the executive branch.

DS: 15:40 Which really is what the you know.

CSJ: 15:43 Which was what intended.

DS: 15:43 if you're independent, Republican, Democrat, I mean, that's what the congress' job is supposed to be.

CSJ: 15:50 The whole point of. So going back to the principles of the founders, the idea was what Adams said once, checks and balances my dear Jefferson, checks and balances, and that's exactly what it's supposed to do. You don't want unified government very often. Maybe during war or a time of international emergency, but typically you want there to be counter balancing forces in your country that question, is that a good foreign policy? Is that good tax policy? Should we, in fact, close the borders. Should we throw the doors open at the borders?

CSJ: 16:25 There should be another entity, either another branch of government or another party of individuals that challenges the orthodoxy of the party in power. This is central to the American idea of good government and so whenever you have one party rule where the dominant party is overwhelmingly capable of sort of doing whatever it wants, that's not good for the country, whether it's a leftist Democratic Party or a rightist Conservative Party.

DS: 16:55 From what I hear you saying is democracy is awkward, it's ugly, it's messy, but.

CSJ: 17:01 Slow, frustrating.

DS: 17:01 This is part of it. So the Republicans regarded the result of, a victory for them. They called their increased Senate majority a huge success and they're right.

CSJ: 17:11 I'll tell you one thing that, you know, if you think of the last year, especially, where you've had these pretty serious controversies over justices and judges. Senate does that. The House plays no role in this and confirmation. It was difficult for the Trump senate to get judges approved, because their majority was so narrow, and everyone recalls the Kavanaugh hearings where we looked to one or two senators, wondering if they would break with the majority and hold up that nomination. Now with the gains that the Republican Party has had in the election of 2018, it will be much easier for the Republican party to install in judgeships and in the Supreme Court the people of its choice. It'll be much, much harder to contemplate that there will be breaks from the majority.

DS: 18:11 We should expect that they will reshape the federal judiciary.

CSJ: 18:15 They've already done it to a large degree. Now it'll be without challenge.

DS: 18:19 But this will be for generations to come. It'll affect.

CSJ: 18:20 And you know what?

DS: 18:21 From arbitration to.

CSJ: 18:23 Reproductive health, to money in politics, money in elections, to same sex marriages and so on. But you know the answer to that. The Jeffersonian answer to that is, elections matter, you know, here's what I was thinking about it. You had 435 house seats contested, every one of them. You had 35 Senate seats. It's usually less than that. Thirty four or 33, but 35 this time, governorships. In many states, state legislatures all across this country, mayors, school boards, county commissions, sheriffs, you name it. So if you add it up, David, all of the elections that happened on November 6th, 2018 in America, it would come